Given the "rules of engagement" LEOs operate under, I think ANY weapon a LEO can shoot accurately with that provides the required stopping power is suitable, whether it be 5-shots or 15+. Last I heard, "suppression fire" was NOT an authorized police tactic (unless the perp was in front of a suitable backstop).
I'd also prefer my local PD to be carrying M4s to shotguns. There is plenty of ammo available that won't overpenetrate a perp, which seems to be the MAIN reason folks don't like seeing 'high-powered' rifles in police hands.
And FWIW, the P228 is exclusively in 9mm last I heard. The P229 is available in .40 S&W (among other calibers).
To the owner of the Glock 27...how do you like it? I may be in the market soon for a new CC pistol.
Thinking over about the subjet of this thread , in the end, talking about wich pistol is the best for police officers use or seen them using shotguns will become a thing of the past. In the USA, as someone pointed out before, criminals are having access to war weapons single shot versions that can be illegaly modified to obtain automatic firing capabilities and in Western Europe the falling of eastern communist countries has made weapons blackmarkets full of Kalashnikovs and has produced the arrival of new mafias. Not long ago spanish Police Authorities, the media and the people witnessed with disbelief how a member of a Romanian gang received 60 7.62 x 3.9 caliber rounds delivered by two men armed with AK-47s.
If we add to this the fact that common criminals are having more and more easy access to the latest tech body armour we will have to conclude expecting Law Enforcement officers use the same kind of war weapons to face hardened baddies This is the way manufactures like HecKler & Koch are heading for with new PDW or MP7 now that it is in production. And we can expect citizens buying body armour and using the kind of weapons FN Herstal is offering now: The Five-seveN® Pistol, 5.7 x 28 mm. All this if we agree with both manufacturers when they tell us about the high penetration power their weapons have against modern body armour and the enough stoping power they claim for their new calibers.
I honestly think you WON'T see too many "up armored" Bad Guys (henceforth refered to as "BGs"). For starters, most BGs are terribly short-sighted. They are only looking as far as how to get cash for their next fix, not mapping out alternate escape routes from the "ambush zone".
The BGs that ARE that far-sighted are probably also cautious enought to plan their "jobs" to minimize or avoid confrontation.
Finally, there is the fact that your better class body armor (I think anything above Level IIIA) is illegal to own.
It should also be pointed out the PDW and MP7 (along with the P90) were designed with the "rear echelon" non-combatant soldier....drivers, etc., to give them something more effective than a SMG, yet not as unwieldy as a full-size rifle. The fact their ammo cuts through Kevlar like a hot knife through butter is simply a bonus.
FWIW, I shot an old police model S&W .38 yesterday. VERY nice handling gun, for a revolver.
Exporting Level III and IV armor plates requires a U.S. State Department export permit. There are also a few countries that may require a Department of Commerce export license for Level II-A, Level II and Level III-A Body Armor. It is the SOLE responsibility of the purchaser to ensure that all transactions conform to US and local Federal, State and Local Statutes, Codes, and Ordinances.
Residents ofConnecticut are prohibited from buying Body Armor unless the sale is face to face (or unless the buyer is a police officer, Police Department, or military). See A Survey of State and Federal Law.
I stand by my claim that most criminals are not going to bother making an expensive investment to assist them in their crimes. I'd say statistically the odds are down near zero, and if you are carrying when accosted by an armored thug, your firearms training should have included what to do when rounds placed COM fail to stop the attacker.
In short, the solution to gunfighting (a last resort for us civilians anyway)armored criminals is not AP ammo, it is superior marksmanship and training.
Well, I do not know about legislation in the USA concerning owning of body armour nor how difficult obtaining it illegaly is, but the fact is that here in Spain we are facing a hell of a problem.
Spain is a sort of European California that received fourty million tourists last year, come from many different places, but mainly European. There is in Andalucia in the South of the country a place called Costa del Sol (Sunshine Coast). One of the villages of this area, Marbella, is one of the fanciest places on Earth to spend your hollydays in. In fact people like Sean Connery Or Gunilla Von Bismark, the heiress of the fortune of German Kaiser Otto Von Bismark from wich the name of the famous German WWII main battle ship comes after, own a house there.
But in the recent years all the mafias in Europe are laundering their black money buying real state property and companies in Costa del Sol. They have settled there and many capos (bosses) live in that place, and their soldati (soldiers) with them.
One year ago two members of Cosa Nostra (the Sicilian Mafia) machineguned the window of an italian heir stylist killing him and a Spanish 7 years old childboy. Severals months ago the boss of the Lyon´s French city Mafia and his wife were killed when three guys scaled the 6 meters tall wall around the house and machineguned the glass wall of their cottage living room (he did not have time to use the 357 magnum Colt Python he carried on). A short time ago four italian mafiosi (the soldati not only work for the family but they have their "small" bussines affairs too) assaulted a bank and used electronic equipment to survey the communications of the local police, noticing that a police car was ahead of where they were heading for in their car runnaway, and killed with AK-47s three police officers (one of them a woman), without giving them time to react (they could´nt even leave their car). One of the assaulters was found by another special police unit later and arrested after being wounded in an arm and a leg in the gunfight. He was wearing body armour. As I have already told you in my previous message a Romanian was hit 60 times with Kalashnikov fire shot point-blank in Madrid. And so on and on and on again...
We have the British Narcos that introduce Moroccan hash and Colombian cocain in the UK via Spain, The Colombian Sicarios of the Cartels that introduce the cocain in Europe via Spain and can be found in all national territory, The Sicilians, (Tony Greco,the younger brother of Michele Greco, -the boss of all bosses who is undergoing a life sentence in Sicily for the assasinations of Anti-Mafia Palermitan magistrates Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino and The Boss of Italian Anti-Mafia Force and Army General Alberto Dalla Chiesa-, lived in Barcelona until he was extradited to Italy a short time ago), Neapolitan Camorra and Mafia Calabrese from Italy, the French Marseille´s Mafia (-"The French Connection"- one of the strongest in the World), Russian Mafias In every major city in Spain, the Romanians are controlling prostitution and white slave trade at massive scale everywhere, the Mafias of the French cities of Lyon and Nice... Everybody is doing dirty bussines and killing each other here and the innocent people caught in between them at their gunfights too. And I can tell you these guys are not short sighted at all and they all use "heavy artillery" and they can obtained illegaly virtually any kind of weapon or body armour (In fact large scale weapons dealing is just one of many of these mafias activities) And those who have not still done it are spreading their activities to the whole country.
I tell you, guys ordinary police enforcement weapons does´nt look good enough for the situation we are in here.
Just an article that appeared in British paper The Guardian about some British gangsters, the less dangerous of them all:
Spanish crackdown nets 'violent British drug dealing ring'
Five allegedly linked to killings among 13 arrested
Dale Fuchs in Madrid
Friday July 15, 2005
Spanish police have arrested 13 Britons believed to be members of a drug-smuggling ring based on the Costa del Sol that is accused of laundering up to €50m (£35m).
Three of the men are allegedly linked to a gangland murder in the UK, police said. Two others are allegedly tied to a killing in the Netherlands last year when a drug deal went awry. Spanish police consider them all "highly dangerous".
The gang smuggled cocaine and marijuana to Liverpool and Yorkshire, where the drugs were sold and cash laundered through clothing sales and other businesses, the Spanish interior ministry said in a press statement yesterday. The profits were also channelled through shady property deals on Spain's south coast.
Roughly €3m in drug profits were used to buy stock in a British airline and various businesses in India, officials said.
Until the arrests, carried out with close cooperation from British police, the 13 Britons enjoyed a "high standard of living in luxury homes in the best neighbourhoods with great security measures" in the chic resort towns of Marbella, Mijas, Fuengirola and Malaga, the statement said.
Searching their homes, police found riches and weapons. They confiscated six luxury cars, €150,000 in cash, jewels, designer watches and a variety of guns, including three rifles, two shotguns, two semi-automatics and one revolver.
Police said they had also found a stash of 2,100 cartons of contraband tobacco, false identification cards and paperwork linked to real estate purchases in which "mortgage values were overvalued to increase the amount of money laundered". Police have frozen assets worth "tens of millions of euros".
The leader of the drug ring is alleged to be a British citizen of Pakistani origin who was based in Marbella and orchestrated a "wide network of middlemen and couriers" in Spain, the Netherlands, Britain and Dubai, the ministry statement added. This network made "continual pickups and deliveries of cash", to avoid transferring money or changing currencies through a bank.
"In this way, the pounds earned from the sale of cocaine were delivered to third parties in the UK as payment for the sale of textiles or similar articles, while the buyers of those garments would deliver the equivalent in euros to intermediaries of the organisation in Spain," the ministry said. The middlemen, moreover, would pass "millions of euros" on to the supposed drug traffickers, who paid them a 9% commission for the service.
The leader of the ring is now in jail in Britain, Spanish officials said. They declined to reveal his name or that of any other suspect in Operation Sugar, as is customary under Spain's strict privacy laws.
So far, four of the Britons arrested have been sent to jail on provisional charges. The rest await a hearing by a judge, an official said. An international search warrant has been issued for seven other alleged members of the ring, all of them British.
The swoop is the latest in Spain's crackdown on drug smuggling and organised crime on the Costa del Sol, where the constant flow of foreign tourists enhances anonymity and a booming property market affords opportunities for under-the-table purchases.
In the first half of 2005, police arrested 300 people in connection with money laundering rings and froze €390m in cash and assets. A further 500 people were arrested in connection with international drug smuggling, and a total of 418 tonnes of cocaine, heroin and marijuana were confiscated, according to the tally released yesterday by the interior ministry.
Last month a team of 400 officers dealt a blow to dozens of mafia bosses from a former Soviet republic who were in the process of carving up zones of influence on the coast. In another June swoop, police con fiscated 50 apartments and a 400-room hotel in the break-up of a money laundering ring that stretched to the Bahamas and the Virgin Islands.
Another article from the Guardian:
What is the real 'Costa del Crime'?
A multi-million euro international money-laundering scandal in the Costa del Sol has exposed how much of a hold foreign mafia gangs have on Spain. Graham Keeley reports.
The '"tip of the iceberg" was how the Spanish Attorney General Candido Conde-Pumpido described it.
Authorities in Girona are concerned about East European 'mafias'
The latest international money-laundering scam to envelope the Costa del Sol was, he said, just proof of how a "monster of the international mafia" had set itself up in wealthy tourist resorts in the southern region of Andalusia, such as Marbella, using a law firm as a front.
Conde-Pumpido was referring to the scandal which has so-far led to 41 arrests of nationals from six countries who allegedly have "numerous connections between groups of organised international crimes and a number of suspects implicated in Spain or abroad in serious criminal activities".
Illegally siphoned funds from Russia's crippled oil company Yukos had been discovered as part of the investigation, something the oil company has denied.
One of the key suspects is the head of the law firm, Fernando del Valle, 57, a Chilean citizen, who is said to have set up a network of property and front companies whose traces disappear into offshore accounts in the nearby British territory of Gibraltar, press reports said.
Some of the welter of documents seized by police since the weekend are understood to implicate an array of companies who have their fiscal base in Gibraltar. The tiny territory has just 30,000 residents but 80,000 companies.
Police said they suspect his law firm of having connections with various groups allegedly involved in narcotics, prostitution and other organized criminal activities.
The lengthy police operation code-named "White Whale" relied heavily on close cooperation from police around Europe.
According to unconfirmed reports, prosecutors from Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Netherlands, Russia and the United States were expected to go to Marbella to take part in the investigation.
"Everything indicates that the investigation is not finished, either in Spain or at the international level," police director Victor Garcia Hidalgo told Cadena Ser radio station.
Police sources said up to EUR 600 million may have been laundered in one of the largest such operations ever dismantled in Europe, and certainly the biggest in Spain.
The latest international money-laundering scam to envelope the Costa del Sol was just proof of how a "monster of the international mafia" had set itself up in wealthy tourist resorts in the southern region of Andalusia - Candido Conde-Pumpido, Spanish attorney general.
To date, authorities say they have evidence only of EUR 250 million,invested in aircraft, fast cars and luxury goods.
It is the most obvious evidence of the extent to which foreign mafias have a established a grip on Spain.
In the past three years, the Spanish National Police Force has watched a steady rise in organised crime by gangs from Albania, Romania, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Macedonia and Yugoslavia.
Eastern European gangsters are increasingly getting a tighter grip on Western society - and Spain is no exception.
But though the latest scandal has blown up on these gangs' traditional 'stomping ground – the so-called Costa del Crime in southern Spain– this is not the whole story.
Instead of southern Spain, with the traditional 'Costa del Crime' which was once home to renegade British villains, gangs are spreading to the Costa Brava, in north-eastern Spain.
To open fire is normal for them and the fear of being cut down is nothing. – Jose Maria Mena, Attorney General of Catalonia
It is happening at exactly the same time as this part of Spain becomes more popular with many younger foreigners, who want to make a new life or start a business on the Costa Brava.
Indeed, police said godfathers of the Italian mafia were increasingly using Barcelona as a new base.
Since Christmas, three of the most prominent 'capos' or bosses have been arrested in the Catalan capital.
They include Raffalle Amato, head of the Camorra or Neapolitan mafia, who lived a life of discreet luxury until his arrest in February.
Before that Luca Avallone, head of the mafia in central Italy, was arrested in Barcelona airport en route back to his own country.
And Humberto Adinolfi, another head of the Camorra, was also arrested in Barcelona in January.
Spanish police say the original godfathers are making Catalonia their home as it the climate and the language are not too different from la patria (homeland).
But perhaps more importantly, things are not so 'hot' for them in Spain – they can pass largely unbothered by police and perhaps stand less chance of being 'whacked' or killed by rivals.
The report also noted that each nationality specialises in a different form of crime.
Some South American mafias, particularly Ecuatorian and those from the Dominican Republic, traffic in illegal immigrants.
The Colombian cocain cartels use Spain as headquarter for their operations in Europe.
But there is "special concern" about the operation of Eastern European mafias because they provoke "social alarm" among local people.
The Russians and Ukrainians are described as "the kings of money laundering, using it to buy property and to set up front companies particularly in the construction industry".
Police find it difficult to penetrate these gangs, even with informers in prison; the report says language problems, their own specialised military knowledge and readiness to use violence make them hard to break up.
Girona, to the north of Catalonia, and Tarragona to the south are favourites. But Barcelona does not escape the influence of these gangs.
One of the most prestigious jewellers in the city, Suarez, was robbed of jewels worth EUR 1.5 million at gunpoint by ex-army Albanian gangsters in May.
Crown Prince Felipe bought Princess Letizia's white gold engagement ring at Suarez, and the shop's reputation stretches throughout Spain.
Interpol has launched an international hunt for the robbers who were said to "know what they wanted" when they broke into the jewellers and carried out a "professional job", according to police sources.
In September last year, a Lithuanian teenager was killed in a gangland shooting near Tarragona. The year before, a similar shooting in the nearby town of Bot cost the life of another Lithuanian.
The Attorney General of Catalonia, Jose Maria Mena, was so concerned by the rise of the Eastern European mafias that he released a report recently on the phenomenon
"The increase in violence is indisputable and serious because each time this happens it is difficult to resist.
"And we are seeing day by day the incorporation into our community of cultures of violence from other countries where life is cheap."
Mena said: "This helps to spread a climate of fear and this area has changed into a refuge for these type of criminal groups who take advantage of the affluence which tourism brings and the dispersion of small homes where they can live anonymously."
"Steadily, they are opening illegal businesses such as massage parlours, bars or discos which are fronts to launder money made from prostitution or drug dealing".
Not the kind of thing you read in tourist guides.
But whether these unwelcome visitors will put off the tide of foreigners who are coming to this part of Spain remains to be seen.
Sales of holiday homes for Britons, Germans other foreigners are also booming in this part of Spain, according to estate agents.
updated March 2005
One last article:
Former Antonio Body Guard fights for life
Date: Monday, 6 December 2004, at 6:39 a.m.
BOY, 7, IS KILLED IN SHOOT-OUT Dec 6 2004
A BOY of seven was one of two people killed by gangsters armed with Uzi sub machine guns on Spain's Costa Del Sol.
A 36-year-old hairdresser also died in the shoot-out in upmarket Puerto Banus, a resort popular with Brits.
A former bodyguard of Spanish movie star Antonio Banderas was left fighting for his life.
The gun battle began when three hooded men attempted to assassinate a suspected drugs baron as he sat in a hair salon on Saturday.
The hairdresser and the boy were killed as the gunmen sprayed bullets into the room.
But their intended target, believed to be a French-Algerian Mafia boss, escaped.
His bodyguard, 42-year-old Francisco Becerra Jimenez, was hit twice in the shoulder, twice in the ribs and in an arm and leg.
A police source said: 'No Britons were involved.
'This was one of the most serious cases of score-settling among the criminal fraternity who now plague this coast with their activities.'
In October, an unidentified east European died during a shoot-out in Marbella.
And in May, a French-Algerian man and a police officer were seriously wounded in a running gun battle.
Police say the Costa is gripped by organised crime.
Last year, they broke up 53 criminal organisations, many of them British, who were trafficking in drugs, stolen cars, arms and laundering money.
Do you allenTC2 Keep on thinking I am exagerating when I say (at least in
Spain) we will see soon police officers using MP7s?
in Los Angeles crime is always high, but spun by the media as normal life, but sometimes i wonder when i will get shot at and if i will get hit. then i think of rodney king, north Hollywood, and, Darryl gates and remember that for as high as it is our crime is still lower than many other cities on earth. and why that is unlikely. anyway 1/6 police have it made cause we control their fate and the suspects'. we decide if combat joe is to go to jail, if barbie has drunken too much and her nudity is indecent, and when if ever we don't agree with no boundaries batman. did the joker get parole? you tell me, did mad max go over the edge.... of course....uhh did we find a psycho hobo? if we did, he probably got psychiatric help, or jail time. no matter what the case we must not forget that that crime occurs and we have an opportunity to help stop it.
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