Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

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Thread: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

  1. #1
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    Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    Anyone know what type of Howitzers were used by the Marines at Khe Sanh?

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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    Heya, Blu Falcon!

    Just read in the wikipedia article that the gyrenes had "48 pieces of various calibers". I can't find my book on the subject, but would speculate ($10 word of the day!) that it'd be mainly towed 105mm M101s, 155mm M114s, and possibly 107mm M98s. The M114 is available as the 155mm howitzer the Hasbro put out in the GI Joe line. You can kit bash a M98 using the 75mm pack howitzer that Dragon did with a new tube. They would also have mortars: 81mm, 4.2", etc.

    Hope this helps!

    Russ
    Proud son of Rose and Wes

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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    Quote Originally Posted by russcal View Post
    Heya, Blu Falcon!

    You can kit bash a M98 using the 75mm pack howitzer that Dragon did with a new tube. They would also have mortars: 81mm, 4.2", etc.

    Hope this helps!

    Russ
    Proud son of Rose and Wes
    Are you referring to this one? http://www.gijoeelite.com/f_itemPart...Part=GID-71272 A bit pricey, but I need an arty piece. I was bidding on a 1/6 arty piece on ebay a while back, but didn't win. For the life of me I can't recall which howitzer it was.

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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    I just found some good info here... http://books.google.com/books?id=ggF...num=1#PPA68,M1

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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    Heya, Blu Falcon!

    Yep, thats the critter! If you end up going that route, I can send you what little I have on the M98. The 155mm howitzer shouldn't be too hard to find, I actually bought mine at a Toy r Us a few years back for $10, so they should be reasonbly available on evilBay. It'll need some paint and detail, but it's a good starting point.

    If I recall, someone from France did a Dien Bien Phu dio using one that was posted here withen the last coupla years.

    Good luck!

    Russ
    Proud son of Rose and Wes

  8. #6
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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    Tough finding an Order of Battle online, I'll see what I can dig up in my refs. meanwhile, here's some stuff and site links:

    Looks like the primary, direct support was by 1st Bn/13th Marines




    From http://www.history.army.mil/books/Vi...A54-73/ch5.htm

    The Khe Sanh defenders had three batteries of 105-mm. howitzers, one battery of 4.2-inch mortars, and one battery of 155-mm. howitzers; all five batteries were Marine artillery. In addition, they were supported by four batteries of Army 175-mm. guns, one at the "Rockpile," north of the base,and three at Camp Carroll, to the east. These artillery pieces, 46 in all, were supplemented by 90-mm. tank guns, 106-mm. recoilless rifles, and tactical air support. The fire support coordination. center, the 1st Battalion, 13th Marines (Artillery), located at Khe Sanh, controlled all supporting arms fire. Once the fighting began, the battalion commander, Lieutenant Colonel Lownds, said that the side which kept its artillery intact would win the battle. Only three American artillery pieces were destroyed during the entire siege.

    Since the enemy maneuvered mainly under cover of darkness, the Marine and Army batteries were most active during these hours. Preplanned artillery fires included combined time-on-target fires from nine batteries, separate battalion time-on-target missions, battery multiple-volley individual missions, and battery harassment and interdiction missions. Fire support coordination. progressed to the point that artillery was seldom check fired while tactical aircraft were operating in the area. Throughout the battle 158,981 rounds of various calibers of artillery were directed against enemy locations around the base.
    Battalion organization

    HQ Batty

    Alpha Batty (105mm Towed)

    Bravo Batty (105mm T)

    Charlie Batty (105mm T)

    Whiskey Batty (4.2" Mortar)


    1st Provisional 155mm Howitzer Battery

    _______________________________



    From http://www.brummal.com/5th_155mm_gun_battery.htm -

    5th 155mm Gun Battery (SP) (Rein), 1/13, 9th Marine Amphibious Brigade
    5th 155mm Gun Battery (SP) (REIN) (Tracked) Callsign "Fireball"
    Two platoons of 155mm Guns and one platoon of 8 Inch Howitzers, located at various bases and FSBs, fired in support of Khe Sanh.


    From http://ehistory.osu.edu/vietnam/book...ation/0299.cfm -

    These Marine artillery units possessed a total of 156 guns, howitzers, and mortars. Three firing batteries in each direct support battalion were armed with the tried and proven M101A1 105mm towed howitzer, which had a maximum range of 11, 300 meters and could be air-transported by a CH-46


    Kilo Batty 4/13 was assigned to 1/13 Marines at one time, not sure if they were with them during Khe Sanh fight. M109 SP guns. Most other 155 and 8" guns were tracked, w/o armor superstructures.
    You are
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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    That's some killer info right there, PD. And it confirmed what I was able to dig up last night during my research. I had to dust off my old Larry Burrows Vietnam book and get some photo references. He shot Khe Sanh between '67 and '68, and all the arty pieces in his images were the M101A1 105mm towed howitzer. That's what I need right there. I don't suppose this was ever made in 1/6 scale?

    Russ, I appreciate you putting in the leg for me as well. If push comes to shove I guess I can settle for the kitbashed 75mm pack howitzer, which should've seen action at Khe Sanh as well. Much appreciated, guys.

    EDIT: On second thought, I didn't see anything in the ORBAT above about 75mm pack howitzers at Khe Sanh. Might have to dig a bit deeper before I take the plunge.

    M101A1

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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    Heya, Blu Falcon and PD!

    PDogs ORBAT shows a battery of 4.2" mortars... these were modified into the 107mm M98's. They removed the original 75mm howitzer barrels and replaced them using the 4.2" mortar tubes. The resulting beastie was known as a howtar. These actually were a little more powerful than the 105mm's, just much shorter range. This evidently wasn't thought to be a big problem.

    Here is a link to an ORBAT dated 1964 listing the M98's: http://orbat.com/site/toe/trevithick...20-%20USMC.pdf

    Here is a pic of one in RVN: http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussi...tle=TarawaTalk

    And here is a little oral history of the howtar: http://marinememoir02.homestead.com/Harry03.html

    One of the link I found mentions that the howtar didn't last after about 1969, but they dated back thru Korea , even possibly to World War II!

    Unfortunately, no one has a 105mm howitzer in sixth scale. If you wanna try this route, I think Plastic Panzers does / did a M7 Priest, when is the towed gun minus its trails and axle mounted on a M3 Lee chassis. I imagine you could get just the gun. This would require fabbing the trails, wheels, shield, etc.

    Hope this helps!

    Russ
    Proud son of Rose and Wes

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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    Heya, Blu Falcon!

    Just looked on evilBay...

    Here's one of the Hasbro 155mm howitzers:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/GI-Joe-155mm-How...3A1%7C294%3A50

    Russ
    Proud son of Rose and Wes

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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    Quote Originally Posted by russcal View Post
    Heya, Blu Falcon and PD!

    PDogs ORBAT shows a battery of 4.2" mortars... these were modified into the 107mm M98's. They removed the original 75mm howitzer barrels and replaced them using the 4.2" mortar tubes. The resulting beastie was known as a howtar. These actually were a little more powerful than the 105mm's, just much shorter range. This evidently wasn't thought to be a big problem.

    Here is a link to an ORBAT dated 1964 listing the M98's: http://orbat.com/site/toe/trevithick...20-%20USMC.pdf

    Here is a pic of one in RVN: http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussi...tle=TarawaTalk

    And here is a little oral history of the howtar: http://marinememoir02.homestead.com/Harry03.html

    One of the link I found mentions that the howtar didn't last after about 1969, but they dated back thru Korea , even possibly to World War II!

    Unfortunately, no one has a 105mm howitzer in sixth scale. If you wanna try this route, I think Plastic Panzers does / did a M7 Priest, when is the towed gun minus its trails and axle mounted on a M3 Lee chassis. I imagine you could get just the gun. This would require fabbing the trails, wheels, shield, etc.

    Hope this helps!

    Russ
    Proud son of Rose and Wes
    That's some priceless G-2 right there, amigo. Thanks for sharing. Looks like I'll be attempting to build a howtar. And I'll be watching the 155mm howitzer on ebay. Thanks for the heads up, brother.

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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    As I was looking thru unit sites, the pics showed M30 "four deuce" mortars being used. I need to dig up some more confirmations.
    You are
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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    I guess the next logical question is there an abundance of 155mm, 105mm or 75mm ammo in 1/6? Powder cans? Fuse cans? ammo crates? Breach swab? Loading tray? If I'm going to build a Khe Sanh diorama I need to have all these things and then some.

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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    I believe you have entered The Scratchbuild Zone.....

    (Serling's voice) "Portrait of a man with a need....."
    You are
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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    Quote Originally Posted by pukingdog View Post
    I believe you have entered The Scratchbuild Zone.....

    (Serling's voice) "Portrait of a man with a need....."
    The next evolution for me is learning how to re-paint heads, then building bases and dios. Scratch building would be the final test of my 1/6 prowess. Guess I have to start sooner or later. BTW, PM sent regarding another question not related to this.

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    The gospel according to Rottman, book of Osprey....

    From Osprey Campaign number 150 - Khe Sanh 1967-68 by Gordon L. Rottman:

    _ 1/13 Marines' three 105mm batteries, "four deuce", and 155mm batteries (6 pieces/batty) all deployed at Khe Sanh Combat Base, excepting three Charlie Battery 105s on Hill 881 South, and two Whiskey Battery 4.2" mortars located on Hill 861.

    _ Bravo Battery, 1/13 Marines used refurbished WW2 M2A1 howitzers*.

    _ Concrete firing bases were poured for the 105mm and 155mm guns.


    ___________________


    In use at Khe Sanh

    _ 60mm M19 mortar ( 3 per mortar section/per Rifle Company)
    _ 81mm M29 " ( 8 per mortar platoon/H&S Co/Marine Infantry Bn)
    _ 4.2 inch M30 "
    _ 105mm M101A1 howitzer
    _ 105mm *M2A1 "
    _ 155mm M114A1 "
    _ 175mm M107A1 SP gun

    KSCB and surrounding outposts had 32x 81mm and 48 x 60mm mortars, plus a few each on FOB-3, along with one "Four Deuce".

    37th ARVN Rangers
    _ 4 x 60mm mortar
    _ 1 x 81mm "
    _ 1 x 106mm recoilless rifle

    In addition, at KSCB, the following:

    _ Six M48A3 Patton tanks (90mm) - three each from 2nd and 3rd platoons, B Company 3rd Tank Bn

    _ Two platoons of five each M50A1 "Ontos" (each vehicle w/ six 106mm RR) - A Co/ 3rd AT Bn (redesig AT Co/3rd Tk Bn)

    US Army Composite Weapons Platoon
    _ Two M42A1 "Duster" SP Twin 40mm AA guns
    _ Two M35A2 2-1/2 ton truck-mounted M55 "quad .50" machine guns


    US Army artillery support (175mm)
    _ Batty A, 8th Bn, 4th FA and Battys B and C, 2nd Bn, 94th FA, at Camp Carroll
    _ Batty A, 2nd Bn, 94th, at The Rockpile.
    You are
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    Re: The gospel according to Rottman, book of Osprey....

    Thanks for putting in the leg work, Pdog. So in other words, none of those arty pieces used at Khe Sanh exists in 1/6.

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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    No prob, Blu, I learned quite a bit from digging around, and owe thanks to my buddy John, for the loan of the Osprey. Like Russ says, Hasbro made a 155mm howitzer. They pop up here and there, occasionally.

    You are
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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    Quote Originally Posted by pukingdog View Post
    No prob, Blu, I learned quite a bit from digging around, and owe thanks to my buddy John, for the loan of the Osprey. Like Russ says, Hasbro made a 155mm howitzer. They pop up here and there, occasionally.
    You mean like this one? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=280353003361 I placed a bid, walked away and was no where near a computer when the auction ended. I'm so pissed at myself for missing this one.

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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    BTDT, had the warning messages coming in over the phone, just to watch some item slide away, LOL.
    You are
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    When it counts---The Masao
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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    Heya, Blu Falcon!

    Here's another one...

    http://cgi.ebay.com/GI-Joe-155-mm-Ho...3A1%7C294%3A50

    Ends in about 5 hours.

    Russ
    Proud son of Rose and Wes

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    Re: Question about Artillery at Khe Sanh...

    here's my Hasbro...received yesterday

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]

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