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Thread: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

  1. #1
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    Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    This post is not political in nature and I hope that it won't be seen that way. However, if this thread is removed or I receive a suspension or ban, then so be it, because I find what is an apparent unwritten change in the forum rules to be quite appalling and in need of discussion. Should the forum rules be changed to quell the discussion of any figure (the figure not the person) that might be considered controversial or offensive? That's a serious question that deserves an answer. I say this because I noticed that a thread announcing the upcoming Donald Trump figure from DiD was posted and soon removed. I love OSW and I visit here every day but I feel like I have to say something about the apparent unwritten prohibition on discussion of the figure. I saw the Trump figure announced on BBICN weeks before it was ever mentioned on OSW and I figured that was kind of odd. When the figure was finally announced on OSW, the thread quickly disappeared and I quickly (erroneously? please elaborate if so) came to the conclusion that discussion of the figure is quietly being quashed. I understand that Trump is a politically controversial individual but Obama was/is a controversial individual as well and discussion of the DiD Obama figure wasn't prohibited. The same rules that concern politics in any other thread should be enforced concerning discussion of the Trump figure in that thread. If members can't keep their political comments in check, then their comments should be deleted and warnings concerning potential suspensions or bans should be issued.

    For the record, I would never purchase a political figure and I doubt that I would have even commented in the thread other than to possibly say that I think the likeness is terrible. Still, I think that the pros and cons of the figure (not the man) should be discussed just like any other figure. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it but it certainly looks to me like a double standard is now in effect concerning this particular figure. Not only was the Obama figure freely discussed, but we've seen figures of Hitler and Himmler and other Nazis discussed many times. As far as controversial figures are concerned, the Nazis are only the tip of the iceberg. We've also seen controversial or potentially offensive figures such as Vladimir Putin and Osama bin Laden discussed. We've even seen a line of porn star figures discussed. I've never really had any problems with how OSW has been run in the past but this situation rubs me the wrong way. If a Hillary Clinton figure were to be released and discussed, I wouldn't have any interest in it but I also wouldn't have a problem with it being discussed on OSW. It really seems like a blatant double standard to me. When doing a Google search for the missing thread, I found that it's now inaccessible because it's located in the questionable post archive here: Donald Trump in 1:6 by DiD
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Personally speaking . . .

    I'm an admin in 1:6 discussuon group.

    The group too had an informative post/thread announcing the figure with pics.

    I posted a courtesy notice stating no politics.

    Several members didn't take heed.

    I had to delete posts and ultimately the thread.

    The OP re-posted it and the thread was locked to prevent further disruptions (i.e. comments disabled).

    I've seen threads about the Trump figure go downhill with the political rantings elsewhere.

    I can't speak for the thread here though.

    The only comments I made was wanting 1:6 female figures of Melania, Ivanka, and Kellyanne along with make 1:6 great again.

    That's about as political I got in that discussion.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    If a 1:6 Hillary figure was ever made, would it utilize a female seamless body from PHICEN with a pant suit outfit? Would it have sculpted hair or rooted hair?
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    The problem is generally any threads with political content go south in a hurry and result in more work for the mods. I haven't seen many threads of a political nature here that didn't degenerate into an insult slinging contest. For what its worth I scan the forums fairly regularly and that thread was the first I had seen here on the figure. DID is taking a pretty low profile approach with it after their recent escapades, one of the distributors that posts here from time to time hasn't even bothered posting anything about it here.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaForceChung View Post
    If a 1:6 Hillary figure was ever made, would it utilize a female seamless body from PHICEN with a pant suit outfit? Would it have sculpted hair or rooted hair?
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    I understand that threads with political content tend to go south but isn't that what we have admins for? I don't know if it's possible in this forum but perhaps threads that have the potential to devolve into heated arguments could be moderated before comments are made public. Before posting this thread, I asked myself a question. Is this thread politically motivated? My answer was conflicted. I'm all for discussion and reasonable debate on just about any topic, so my head said "no" but my heart said "maybe". Considering that, I can somewhat understand how some people can find it difficult to keep political comments to themselves. However, "difficult" isn't the same as "impossible". I've seen a number of interesting threads here get removed because certain individuals couldn't show any restraint and it irritates me to no end that those individuals are in effect allowed to shut down a topic of conversation with little in the way of repercussions. It's my belief that rather than delete threads, that the offenders should be punished in some way. If some members can't participate in the OSW community responsibly, then perhaps they shouldn't be allowed participate at all.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    I understand that threads with political content tend to go south but isn't that what we have admins for? It's my belief that rather than delete threads, that the offenders should be punished in some way. If some members can't participate in the OSW community responsibly, then perhaps they shouldn't be allowed participate at all.
    Generally once a thread has been moved it is after the slinging has broken out. It is pretty relaxed here and that is one of the few areas where we see members get warnings or bans handed out. I can see where you are coming from with this given the nature of other threads and how they have the potential to be just as divisive, but there are only two guys here that keep the lights on, and that is on a volunteer basis with little in the way of support. If it means less dirty work for them it is a small trade off in my mind. Thankfully other topics of a controversial nature are generally handled much better by the diverse user base here, they can be divisive but members generally direct their comments at the product rather than each other.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Before I started the thread I first did a research in OSW and was really surprised that it had still not been discussed here. But maybe it had been already discussed but was deleted faster? I would have preferred not a complete deletion but a cut from the downgoing comments on and then hanging a lock on it.

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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Surprisingly, the comments in this thread have been civil and reasonable so far, though I don't agree with all of them. I hope that an admin (Mike, perhaps) will add some input, because I would like to hear some reasons why certain threads are removed and others aren't. Personally, I can think of a number of threads and figures that I have found offensive (the Che Guevara figures come to mind) but I have managed to restrain myself from posting incendiary comments in those threads. I just happen to think that all members should be held accountable when they cross the line.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    I missed the thread completely and would have been interested in seeing the prototype photos.

    I understand why the thread was removed, though. Some folks just can't help themselves...

    Still, I don't believe those of us who can keep their ire in check should be penalized in lieu of fools who cannot.



    All that said, I don't want to create any additional work for the mods. They've got plenty to keep up with as it is.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    About 2 weeks before the thread in question, I posted a heads-up in staff (which actually has 3-4 members active to semi-active), regarding the appearance on DiD's FB page, of the Trump figure. The past record of political figures has been one of various levels of problems, interfering with the basic discussion of the figure. Members who angrily defend one figure (as a sort of surrogate), might easily attack another. It became a problem for staffers, requiring editing of some content, posting warnings, sometimes actions against posters, and eventual removal of the thread.

    All of which is a lot of happy horsesh*t, but necessary when some cannot follow simple guidelines. Unfortunately, that even includes fairly harmless contents meant to be humorous. They also include comments that are hard to defend anything but calculated to cause issues. And this, in regard to a doll.

    In this particular situation, I edited and removed various posts, until I saw that the thread was more trash than figure discussion. I decided to remove the thread. Honestly, in the past, we handed out varying degrees of "unpaid leave" to those who went over the line in threads, decided by the severity of their post(s). It is a tiresome task, and again, staff does have leeway in how we handle things. In this case, there was no directive that the figure could not be discussed here, in another thread.

    As for a double standard, NO. That is the same sort of bullsh*t as when staffers' political "bent" is asserted by angry individuals, after figures of all stripes have become the center of RL controversy.

    Put most simply, political commentary in a figure discussion (including figures based on a political person), is just another form of thread hijacking. As such, it may result in any number of results, just like any hijacked thread.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Perhaps the site could have a free speech area (like the NSFW area) with all the relevant trigger warnings etc where folk can talk freely about political figures so that such discussions don't happen on the main pages. Maybe.

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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Hey Scimitar-

    I see Mike has weighed in and shared the admin experience on this. (Thanks Mike!) From my perspective, I've been a member here a long time and unfortunately have noted that some members simply don't share you self control. Where you would discuss the figure simply on its merits as an action figure (likeness, body design, clothing & accessories, and maybe personal interest to you), others bring in their politics (or even religion, depending on the figure). As Mike put it, the thread gets hijacked into an argument that has nothing to do with the action figure itself anymore. I personally have not seen a change in the rules. What I have seen is - probably as a result of too many threads gone very, very bad - admins are better at identifying threads likely to go bad early and as a result responding more quickly when they do. My nickel. (I was going to say 2 cents, but pennies have long since gone the way of the dodo up here.)

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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    We prefer the far larger and higher traffic off-site discussion forums, for free speech subjects like politics, outré and divisive beliefs, and basic telling fellow members to go (your comment here) themselves. Truth be told, the NSFW is referred to by staffers as the "bad neighborhood".
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Maybe just let the thread open with the pics available with no comments allowed for those that want to see the fig. Its a given that anything Trump will be divisive, LOL

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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    .
    I think it would be naive to deny that there is something of a de facto "double standard" but the Mods didn't create it. It's just inevitable that talking Trump and the figure of Trump is likely to heat up in a way that doesn't happen with say Steve Jobs and the (cancelled) figure of Steve Jobs. A passing comment of mine was deleted in the DiD Trump thread and I vented a bit at the time by PM and raised some of the above issues. At this point I still think frankly Pukingdog was wrong about my specific comment but that's totally unimportant as he was right about the general concept that caution and even maybe over-cautiousness are probably required in respect to all Trump subjects.

    By way of frame of reference as to what things have come to, the entirety of the message boards of the Internet Movie Data Base are getting completely shut down. The official reason I think is that they say dialogue has migrated to other forms of social media, but the real reason is that some discussion has deteriorated, and the timing suggests the interjection of politics or of the current president is a big part of it.

    To sisquisiri's comment that maybe the Trump thread should have stayed open as to the DiD pics but with no comments, I am somewhat uncomfortable with OSW just providing a no comment pure advertising function. Also even pure pics of this figure are going to get into trouble because let's face it, if it comes out the figure is likely going to be used and photographed by people in satirical ways and what happens if those pics are posted? We can't say DiD pics are fine but member pics are not. I had a thread like that myself, using the previous Trump figure, and I think I was kind of gentle and harmeless, but this was pre-election and I don't hink I could do the same thing now.

    Eventually if the DiD figure actually comes out there's also going to be an interesting test re "talk about the figure not the person" if in this case the person ever becomes involved in reacting to the figure one way or the other, which is quite possible. It's another potentially volatile subject though it would probably be entertaining.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Maybe I'm getting too old but I don't remember these kinds of stupid a$$ reactions and comments when the obama figures came out.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    And..... here we go again.. lol

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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    I think there is a clear distinction between discussing a controversial figure and discussing a controversial figure that will raise unwanted attention and may get you in trouble. From time to time I would love to label myself "open minded" and ride the high horse of freedom of speech. But do I want to exercise that freedom at the expense of getting a public forum and the people running it on the collision course with a powerful rich guy who files lawsuit for breakfast? No. Had Obama been suing people left and right before he came into the office, I bet folks would think twice about posting the figure here. It is an infringement of that person's right to begin with, so if there is a good chance of adverse legal consequence, who can you blame for taking extra caution or just avoiding it altogether?

    Anyone who wants to see the pictures can go straight to DiD's website. Personally I think it's a huge disappointment. Poor choice on the hair. The real thing looks like a wig, so planted hair would have been awesome. The sculpted hair just looks like a scoop of overcooked spaghetti.

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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Quote Originally Posted by ironman1188 View Post
    Maybe I'm getting too old but I don't remember these kinds of stupid a$$ reactions and comments when the obama figures came out.
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - DID coming out with Obama!!!

    Before that, there was a sh*tstorm over comments about the GW Bush figure. There is no expiration on bad judgement, usually beginning with something like "I shouldn't say this but...".
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Well, even NAZI figures are allowed, as long as the discussion stays on the figure, and not the politics. I don't see why we couldn't treat any/all figures like that......?
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    WELL . . .

    In terms of perspective . . .

    There was some bias/resentment towards 1:6 female figures as well due to the perception they took away from the "military" focus. That too passed (more or less) and those who just don't care for 1:6 female figures with military, paramilitary, etc. themes either moved on and/or just don't comment on it anymore and/or just don't give a damn anymore because they're just "toys" or whatever.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Quote Originally Posted by onesixthpolice View Post
    deleted
    Well, I wouldn't agree with that but, getting back to 1:6, IT'S A FIGURE!! I bought, the Talking Presidents, I bought obama and I'll buy Trump.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Quote Originally Posted by onesixthpolice View Post
    Well, even NAZI figures are allowed, as long as the discussion stays on the figure, and not the politics. I don't see why we couldn't treat any/all figures like that......?
    This >
    "...as long as the discussion stays on the figure, and not the politics."
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Quote Originally Posted by pukingdog View Post
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - DID coming out with Obama!!!

    Before that, there was a sh*tstorm over comments about the GW Bush figure. There is no expiration on bad judgement, usually beginning with something like "I shouldn't say this but...".
    Oh yes, indeed. Almost seems to be a tradition to break the forums rules, if a figure of an actual politician is anounced. Understood.

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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Quote Originally Posted by pukingdog View Post
    GOD BLESS AMERICA - DID coming out with Obama!!!

    Before that, there was a sh*tstorm over comments about the GW Bush figure. There is no expiration on bad judgement, usually beginning with something like "I shouldn't say this but...".
    I think I got a time out in that thread. I for the most part did learn my lesson though.
    Scott

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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Quote Originally Posted by pukingdog View Post
    And basic telling fellow members to go (your comment here) themselves.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Wow, in a thread about controversial figure discussion, people still can't control themselves. Either they feel what they're saying is allowed, or they just don't care for rules. Me? I'm just trying to walk lightly, not make waves and lend my opinion and wisdom to this thread.

    We have to remember the very subject matter; presidents. No matter what side you're on, no matter how good/bad/ugly you think the person is, there are people that love 'em and those that hate 'em. DiD must think this figure will sell and make them money, but HAVE to know that it will be viewed as controversial, and generate "buzz" about their product. Maybe that's why the hesitation on this figure. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think as Presidents, their image is public domain(?). And the admins/mods respond to replies in these threads, not the mention of a new figure. So keep your thoughts on the PERSON off the board.

    Sure, if all these threads would stay on topic about the FIGURE, they would still be there. It seems someone inevitably says something that someone else takes the wrong way, so they respond. Then it snowballs from there. Sometimes it's just in the interpretation of a comment. And when a mod/admin interpret a breech of the rules, they swing into action like Spider-Man.
    This last election, for example, was intense (for lack of a better word). People got worked up, and if they read something on their favorite message board that they think is directed at their candidate, they may feel the need to shoot back. Meanwhile the rest of us trying to read about a new figure get caught in the crossfire.

    As for controversial figures in general, just remember that even if somebody posted a new or custom figure of the Pope, SOMEBODY would say something the mods would have to deal with. It's just how people are. Something you might think is the best ever, someone else wouldn't own if you paid them. To quote Gen. Patton "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." If we all only bought one kind of figure, what kind of hobby would this be?

    There is a difference, IMHO, between historical figures and current leaders of nations (I didn't see much comment about the Putin figure someone [DiD?] made, maybe I missed it). If some company made a Hitler figure in the 1940's, I REALLY think a lot of people would have had a problem with it. But today, it's a "historical" figure. NO, I'm not comparing ANYONE to Hitler. Just an example that everyone familiar with history would understand. If you buy a WWII Nazi German figure, it doesn't mean anything. If you start posting that you support their world views, not allowed.

    The idea of just an "announcement" only type area is one I like. We do have the "Front Page News" area. This is a discussion forum about the hobby, which includes new items. People come here to get the latest news and information about up-coming products. Simply letting people know of something new isn't favoring or advertising as much as it is informing the community. Newspapers, magazines, etc do it. If the Admins feel pictures would cause trouble, just have links.

    I think PD is right; if you want to talk politics go somewhere else. If you want to say "the paint job on that figure is bad", that's one thing. If you want to say "that person is a lying brassard", keep walking.
    I can see why mods/admins would delete threads, because it get's tiresome having to explain the difference all the time.

    And there is a double standard.

    For those that missed it, no, it's not forbidden to discuss controversial figures.......FIGURES! It's always been forbidden to talk about the people, as some have found the hard way.

    Just stay ON TOPIC. It's not that hard. If DFC can do it, anyone can.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joebros View Post
    Just stay ON TOPIC. It's not that hard. If DFC can do it, anyone can.
    --

    GOLLY!

    I feel like I've been complimented and insulted (in a good joking ribbing way) simultaneously!

    It's euphoric like farting and sneezing at the same time!

    Just one observation.

    No one went into a 1:6 (or political diatribe) when HT produced and their one of their basic TT male bodies with head sculpt clearly inspired by the former President Obama?

    Last I checked, that figure still fetches a good bit of change loose or mint in package.
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    Re: Is it now forbidden to discuss controversial figures on OSW?

    Quote Originally Posted by pukingdog View Post
    ...In this particular situation, I edited and removed various posts, until I saw that the thread was more trash than figure discussion. I decided to remove the thread. Honestly, in the past, we handed out varying degrees of "unpaid leave" to those who went over the line in threads, decided by the severity of their post(s). It is a tiresome task, and again, staff does have leeway in how we handle things. In this case, there was no directive that the figure could not be discussed here, in another thread.

    As for a double standard, NO. That is the same sort of bullsh*t as when staffers' political "bent" is asserted by angry individuals, after figures of all stripes have become the center of RL controversy.
    ...
    Mike, I'm not the only one that sees a double standard here. The admins didn't create it, but it still exists if they aren't willing to deal with bad behavior rather than shut down threads dealing with controversial figures. Even if there was no directive that the figure not be discussed in other threads, it's kind of a moot point if the primary announcement thread for the figure is shut down, because nothing will prevent those with no self control from having those subsequent threads shut down as well. Mike, we've had many discussions outside of the forum and I believe that you know me well enough to know that I respect you and the rest of the staff here. However, that respect doesn't mean that I don't occasionally disagree with some of the decisions made by staff concerning the forum. As an active member of the forum, I felt that it was proper to bring the issue of how controversial figures are discussed (or not discussed) to the forefront by creating this thread so that the issue can be discussed in a civil manner.

    Unfortunately, we now live in an era where bad behavior is often excused if it can be linked to politics. Unaccounted for bad behavior, just happens to be something that really grinds me, partly because I spent decades working in a career field where extremely bad and often violent behavior is something that I encountered on a nearly daily basis. Fortunately I was in a position to make sure that those responsible, were often held accountable for their words or actions. All things considered, I simply don't understand how anyone can fail to see a double standard if we are allowed to discuss figures of individuals responsible for mass genocide such as Hitler and Stalin or an individual such as Guevara that was Castro's chief executioner and responsible for the deaths of thousands of political dissidents but we can't discuss a figure of the current US Commander in Chief.
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