I had firearms training last week so I brought my duty pistol home to clean it. I usually clean it at work but ran out of time. As I was cleaning it, I got thinking about the difference between my current weapon and the one I was issued when I came on the department.
On Sept. 24, 1989 I was sworn in as a patrol officer. I went from City Hall to the station and the training sgt. handed me a Smith & Wesson Model 64 .38 Special revolver. He gave me 18 rounds of ammo and dump pouches for my duty belt (we had to buy our own speed loaders if we wanted them!). I carried this for about four or five years and then we switched to a S&W 5906 9mm. The department allowed any officer who wanted to do so to buy their .38 duty weapon through the dealer. I paid $130 for it. It's sat in my safe pretty much since then. I carry a gun 40+ hrs. a week so I don't really do much with them on my off time.
After about 5 horrible years of broken down crappy use, we switched from the S&W 5906 to our current weapon, the Glock Model 22C (C for compensation ports) .40 caliber.
The current weapon is so much better for law enforcement use but I got curious about some things so I did some comparions
Smith 64
Capacity 6
Weight 36 oz.
Length 8 7/8 in.
sights notch/ramp
safety none
finish stainless
ammo 12 backup
Glock 22C
Capacity 15+1
Weight 25 oz.
Length 7.32 in.
sights 3 dot night sights
safety 3
finish blued/polymer
ammo 30 backup
If anyone is ever in the market for a pistol, I would highly recommend the Glock.
We also switched from the old standbye Remington 870 shotgun as the vehicle's long gun to the Bushmaster M4 Carbine.
It took some time, but we finally caught up with the times and are better equipped to deal with the types of threats that are out there today.
It is important to have enough rounds to deal with the kind of high-volume firepower that contemporary bad guys wield. Most important, as you know, is making the shot, the one that ends the fight.
Smith revolvers always have been efficient firearms in trained hands, I've shot a lot of their automatics and they don't inspire the same confidence in me. While you have to make due sometimes, I always preferred revolvers in .44 caliber, and semi-autos in .45 ACP, to hedge the bet. Still, an old acquaintance, a KCK detective, shot as deadly as anyone I've met, using an old M&P 2" barrel .38 Spl. He was comfortable with it, and the first shots always went where it counted. That was his idea of suppressive fire.
Now, wheelguns seem to be archaic in modern police use. It's been a rough transition period at times, as officers were asked to use semi-autos that were both under-powered and unreliable. It seems at last that our lawmen are getting useable, if not the best tools, to do the job.
That said, I'd be curious to know your choice of backup.
i tried to convince our rangemaster to try out the 22C's as a personal purchase option for individual officers. i was kindly told to go pound dirt since the C's are of no use during low-light situations because the flash causes temp blindness. i was wondering if you had any experience in this and what you thought of the less felt-recoil as compared to regular 22's. i'd like to revisit this option with our rangemaster and want some field tests to back my proposition.
PD: By our department's policy, we aren't authorized to carry more than the one department issued handgun while on duty (nice, huh?). Off duty we can carry any weapon .32 or above, revolver or pistol, as long as it holds at least six rounds. My off duty weapon was a Sig Sauer .380 until I got rid of it. Now if I ever carry, I just use the Glock. The Sig was a nice sized smooth shooting weapon and would probably be my back up.
onimk: I would suggest that your rangemaster is ill-informed. At least twice a year we qualify with a night shoot. We use several different light sources during the shoot starting at the most light down to no light. We first use headlights, then no headlights but the ambient light off the red/blue squad car lights, we then move to the light of a flashlight, and end with no lighting other than whatever moonlight is available. Even is the last phase, you can still make out the silhouette on the target. The cat-eye three dot sights line up for a perfect shot. I shot the un-compensated model when we were test firing different weapons for the change. There was a difference at the time but I would have called it negligible at the time. After several years of shooting the compensated model, I would probably be able to tell the difference a bit more. As far as the flash causing you to lose your night vision, that's a load of crap. I would guess that he's only seen pictures like the below one and is basing his opinion on that. The flash is so fast, you don't even notice it. Pictures like these are taken on the high speed cameras and they capture something that has happened in what, 1/10,000 of a second. Trust me, the flash doesn't distract you and you don't even notice it after the first time you shoot it and see what it's like. Our average scores went up across the board for officers when we switched from the S&W to the Glock, and this would go for the night shoots as well.
For those unfamiliar with what we're talking about, the "C" in Glock 22C stands for "compensation ports". Glock uses compensation ports on some of their models. It basically is two 1/2" slots in the top of the barrel and two more in the top of the slide. When a round is fired, much of the blast is forced out through these ports. The force going through these ports "pushes" the gun down, compensating for the natural recoil. It looks really cool in freeze frame pictures but happens so fast in real life that you can hardly see it.
I've worked in military/federal law enforcement for about 15 years. My first duty weapon was a M1911A1 .45 in a leather flap-style holster. Awesome weapon, but we weren't allowed to carry it with a round in the chamber. I got very good at drawing the weapon, chambering a round and double tapping within 2-3 seconds. We later transitioned to a S&W Model 15 .38 revolver which was issued with Bianchi speed strips and 18 rounds of ammo. I remember that I hated tying to use the speed strips (they are anything but speedy) during qualification and dumped them in favor of privately bought HKS speedloaders.
We are currently using the M9 Berretta 9mm with 45 rounds. Personally, I like it but would like a little more stopping power. I still miss my old .45
My backup/off-duty weapon is a Ruger SP101 .357 magnum. It has such a short barrel that .357 loads can be a little uncomfortable so I keep it loaded .38 special +P Hydroshock.
You went from Shotguns to M4's? I know that cops need to feel as though they can meet the threat on the street, but am I the only one who is a little disconcerted about this?
Nope, not me. I was watching the bank robbery shoot out they had a couple of years back when the LAPD has to borrow guns from a gun shop to even out the odds. The gunmen had fully auto ak47 against cops with pistols and shotguns, they couldn't even get close. Even now there are kits out there that can help a person change their semi automatic aks into fully auto and they get shipped in illegally all the time. Hell in texas gun control is when you have a rifle on your truck rack. I rather have our civic protectors having the best of the criminals rather than the other way around.
Tung's right, the LAPD bank shootout opened a lot of eyes. Other things like Columbine and other school/business "active shooter" cases also showed the need for change.
The blast pattern on a shotguns make them the wrong tool for potential crowd situations like a school full of uncontrolled chaos. Throw in the relatively short effective range of the shotgun and it can become more of a burden than anything.
Shotguns aren't being totally eliminated but their limitations are being examined a lot closer.
Although I haven't fired the 22C, I do carry the 22. I also cary the 27 with Pearce Mag extenders. Because I carry the 27 on and off I have to qualify with it. Both are excellent guns. 27 takes a little getting use to, same caliber as 22 but still good. Although on entries etc still use the 22.
As for shotguns, in training I saw both men and women have issues using the shotgun. Big bang and big recoil seemed to scare people. But those same men and women had no problem firing the MP-5. Having prior experience with 5.56 I dodn't see much different between the MP-5 and the M-4. So I don't see an issue giving this firepower to LEO's - uniform or not. Especially since most of these issued weapons are semi-
thanks for the info mark, will pass it on to the RM.
4B9- welcome aboard! you'll find quite a few brothers in blue here, great stress relief from our daily grind. :thumb
our line officers still carry shotguns, although designated rifle officers can elect to carry a CAR 9 in addition. yes, i know it's a 9, but that's all we can afford. :lol
I am not LE but have been in the military (AB Infantry)and also own(ed) numerous firearms including M4's, MP5, Glocks (5), and an old slabside (Springfield TRP .45) as well as a Sig GSR .45. I prefer 9 mm G26 to carry in my 5.11 vest and SA .45 in a Eagle SAS holster. I have shot wheelguns in the past and loved them but personally prefer a semi-auto. The new hammerless Detective Special from S&W is real nice but I can't see dropping seven Bens for one. I have been looking at a Vektor Sp-1 9mm and love it. It has absolutely nothing to snag your clothes when drawing concealed. I mean nothing. It is smooth and shoots good also. It is made for both a man or woman.
When I was in the process of joining the RCMP, our Service Revolver was a Smith and Wesson Model 10 (a revolver designed especially for the Force) with a 5" barrel. The RCMP's official sidearm since the 1950's.
In the mid-90's the Force had fully transitioned to the Smith and Wesson 5946, an all stainless double action only 9mm semi-automatic pistol.
Personally, I prefer this:
My own Glock M19 in a Mitch Rosen conceament holster.
I´d definitevely go for a 40-caliber GLOCK 22/23 or a 40 caliber Sig Sauer P229. Anyway I do not understand why you are so reluctant to use 9 mm parabellum pistols when the British Army 22nd Special Air Service Regiment (the best army special forces and anti-terrorism unit in the World) has chosen Sig Sauer P226 and Walther P99 9 mm pistols.
Calvi (former first class legionnaire, 1st Foreing Cavalry Regiment and 2nd Foreing Paratroopers Regiment of the French Foreign Legion)
After a hard day of playing with the 1/6th action figs, I really appreciate sitting down to read a little testosterone-powered discussion about good ol' fashion firepower! Does my heart good to know the younger generation hasn't bought into all that ficticious, fabricated media nonsense about "kinder and gentler" crap and faces the day, the world, and Reality with decent hand- and long-arms firmly in their grasp! :lol
Peace through superior firepower, I always say, (when NOT in wimpy mixed, socially and politically correct company!)
Now...somebody hand me a brewski to wash down this nasty-tasting Metamucil fibre supplement. Please!
Given the "rules of engagement" LEOs operate under, I think ANY weapon a LEO can shoot accurately with that provides the required stopping power is suitable, whether it be 5-shots or 15+. Last I heard, "suppression fire" was NOT an authorized police tactic (unless the perp was in front of a suitable backstop).
I'd also prefer my local PD to be carrying M4s to shotguns. There is plenty of ammo available that won't overpenetrate a perp, which seems to be the MAIN reason folks don't like seeing 'high-powered' rifles in police hands.
And FWIW, the P228 is exclusively in 9mm last I heard. The P229 is available in .40 S&W (among other calibers).
To the owner of the Glock 27...how do you like it? I may be in the market soon for a new CC pistol.
Thinking over about the subjet of this thread , in the end, talking about wich pistol is the best for police officers use or seen them using shotguns will become a thing of the past. In the USA, as someone pointed out before, criminals are having access to war weapons single shot versions that can be illegaly modified to obtain automatic firing capabilities and in Western Europe the falling of eastern communist countries has made weapons blackmarkets full of Kalashnikovs and has produced the arrival of new mafias. Not long ago spanish Police Authorities, the media and the people witnessed with disbelief how a member of a Romanian gang received 60 7.62 x 3.9 caliber rounds delivered by two men armed with AK-47s.
If we add to this the fact that common criminals are having more and more easy access to the latest tech body armour we will have to conclude expecting Law Enforcement officers use the same kind of war weapons to face hardened baddies This is the way manufactures like HecKler & Koch are heading for with new PDW or MP7 now that it is in production. And we can expect citizens buying body armour and using the kind of weapons FN Herstal is offering now: The Five-seveN® Pistol, 5.7 x 28 mm. All this if we agree with both manufacturers when they tell us about the high penetration power their weapons have against modern body armour and the enough stoping power they claim for their new calibers.
I honestly think you WON'T see too many "up armored" Bad Guys (henceforth refered to as "BGs"). For starters, most BGs are terribly short-sighted. They are only looking as far as how to get cash for their next fix, not mapping out alternate escape routes from the "ambush zone".
The BGs that ARE that far-sighted are probably also cautious enought to plan their "jobs" to minimize or avoid confrontation.
Finally, there is the fact that your better class body armor (I think anything above Level IIIA) is illegal to own.
It should also be pointed out the PDW and MP7 (along with the P90) were designed with the "rear echelon" non-combatant soldier....drivers, etc., to give them something more effective than a SMG, yet not as unwieldy as a full-size rifle. The fact their ammo cuts through Kevlar like a hot knife through butter is simply a bonus.
FWIW, I shot an old police model S&W .38 yesterday. VERY nice handling gun, for a revolver.
Exporting Level III and IV armor plates requires a U.S. State Department export permit. There are also a few countries that may require a Department of Commerce export license for Level II-A, Level II and Level III-A Body Armor. It is the SOLE responsibility of the purchaser to ensure that all transactions conform to US and local Federal, State and Local Statutes, Codes, and Ordinances.
Residents ofConnecticut are prohibited from buying Body Armor unless the sale is face to face (or unless the buyer is a police officer, Police Department, or military). See A Survey of State and Federal Law.
I stand by my claim that most criminals are not going to bother making an expensive investment to assist them in their crimes. I'd say statistically the odds are down near zero, and if you are carrying when accosted by an armored thug, your firearms training should have included what to do when rounds placed COM fail to stop the attacker.
In short, the solution to gunfighting (a last resort for us civilians anyway)armored criminals is not AP ammo, it is superior marksmanship and training.
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