5.56mm NATO ammo questions

[goaltendah1]

So I am going to start buying ammo for my new carbine and I want to get ammo that is going to make sense for range use.

I have seen M855 ammo (steel penetrator tip and 62 grain bullet) and XM193 (55 grain bullet) available in bulk locally and online.

I have heard that the M855 is harsh on steel targets.

For the shooters out there, what 5.56mm or .223 ammo are you shooting?

What would be a good load for home defense?

Jeff

[major.rod]

M855 will tear up cast iron targets (experience talking).

5.56 for home defense? Sometimes you have to use what you have. A shotgun would be better. Might want to check out some of the gun forum for better info though. My biggest concern would be overpenetrating walls.

I'll be reading what people suggest.

[Nick Fury 2002]

for home defense I use Hornady TAP ammo. 1 thing to remember is that this is for home defense though. It gets expensive to just shoot box after box of it. What I do is practice with loads of the cheap surplus ammo or even Wolf (clean your firearms very well afterwards) and then may shoot i box of my self defense ammo from time to time. Each ammo type will perform differently This way I am always sure of how my defensive ammo will perform, but can still put tons of bullets down range to keep my skills in check.
Also I am not sure if anyone has covered this with you or not but...... When shooting 5.56 surplus ammo be sure to check your barrel. Make sure it is marked as 5.56 mm and not 2.23. It is not as common these days since most manufacturers have changed their barrel production standards, however in the past some 2.23 barrels have cracked and or shattered when firing 5.56 ammo. Technically yes they are the exact same bullet with just a different form of measurement. The difference lies in the fact that 5.56 military rounds are loaded with a hotter powder and therefore create more pressure in the chamber of the barrel when fired. This overpressure may eventually lead to damaging the barrel and the person behind the trigger.
Just some food for thought. Enjoy your new baby

[Steve O.]

First, I recommend that you send a PM to BrotherMatthew. He is, among other things a firearms trainer who has much experience with ARs.

Second, I recommend that you rethink using a rifle for home defense. A shotgun or a pistol are better choices for a multitude of reasons, but the main one in my opinion is legal. Consider the fact that you are legally liable for every round that leaves your weapon. That includes the one that killed the guy attempting to assault your little girl, but went through-and-through, and retained enough energy to pass through your window and travel on to lodge in the brain of your sleeping neighbor. HD loads for shotguns and pistols typically will dump their energy into the target, be it your assailant, or the wall if you happen to miss. You will be required to justify your use of force, and it will be much easier if you didn't cause any damage or injury to unintended targets.

I would further recommend that you find out what brand/load that your local PD carries in their firearms and use that as your HD load. Again, it will be much easier to defend in court if you are ever forced by another to defend you or your family by use of deadly force.

One last thing. Consider how it would look to a jury if you used a Remington 870 shotgun versus an AR. While you can defend the use of an AR, it's a lot easier to defend the 870. There's no need to make your attorney's job any harder that it will already be.

My opinion FWIW.

[goaltendah1]

Good info Steve. Thanks.

My next buy is a M1911A1 at some point. Perhaps a shotgun afterwards.

I'll have to contact BrotherMatthew and have a talk.

BTW, my barrel is 5.56mm. That was one thing I was sure of when I went out looking for a gun.

Thanks again for all of the feedback guys!

Jeff

[saw249man]

I use regular Winchester 55 grain ammo myself for paper target shooting since it is cheap and can usually be found in Wally World. I keep the M855 in storage for the SHTF situation. I also like to shoot Hornady TAP as well but it is expensive. I have shot Wolf also. I try to find quality ammo in bulk if possible. I love Black Hills Mk262 77 grain ammo when I can find it. This shoots really well in my 18" SPR.

I agree totally with Steve on this as an 870 is better for home defense. AR's can overpenetrate sheetrock, studs, and bricks and possible injury or kill a neighbor or family member. I have a Police version 870 with a sidesaddle on it so I have total of 13 which means 6 in the magazine, 1 to top off the magazine again once a round is loaded into the chamber, and 6 more in the sidesaddle. I do not plan to get into a firefight but as of late there has been alot of gang activity in my city and they tend to do the crimes in numbers. I am going to get a flashlight for mine also.

A .45 is also good for home defense as it has a big, slow moving bullet that can drop most anyone regardless of size. I am looking for a 1911 as well.

[major.rod]

Can't go wrong with a .45. Just renewed my CCW and a P14 is my daily carry.

I'm back to holster shopping because my paddle serpa peeks out below my jacket. Thinking maybe something for the small of my back though sitting may be a pain in the butt.

BTW, any suggestions out there on where to sell my used holsters?

[Nick Fury 2002]

Sorry I guess I should have specified. Rod Steve and SAW249man have very valid points. While I keep 5.56 TAP ammo available, my go to firearms for Home Defense are in the pic below.
[IMG][/IMG]
the shotgun is a Mossberg 590 and the pistols are of course the much loved 1911 (well worn from my days on the Sheriffs TAC team) and a Glock 37 in .45 GAP. So just like the above gentlemen12 guage and .45 are your friends for HD.

[Shane1]

I'll take these in order
1. Ammo.
M855 is hard on steel , most 5.56 is hard on steel. Keep your minimum engagement distances in mind. We use frangible for 75 yards and in. For training ammo, we use whatever is available. In the past in my personal gun, I have used Wolff, Privi and the other. Its cheap and it works. Be aware of any ammo with the 'XM' designation as it means that lot was rejected by the Goverment.

2. An AR type weapon is fine for home defense if it is all you have. The over penetration myth was busted several years ago by the FBI, specifically Buford Boone. Most shotgun rounds offer a more serious threat of overpenetration vs. a 55 grain 5.56.



3. It wont matter if you use a pistol, carbine or shotgun for HD as long as it is a legal justified use of force. If you not within the laws, it wont matter either. Its the circumstances, not the weapons. Thats a myth.

4.Depending on the carbine manufacturer, you may get a true 5.56 chamber or you may not. It's relatively easy to find out if you know someone with a gauge.

[Shane1]

Just to add on the 5.56/.223 issue. The ammunition pressure is a factor but the chamber size is the biggest factor. A SAMMI cut .223 chamber holds the pressure in a 'smaller' throat if you will . If you shoot 5.56 pressure ammunition in a .223 chamber, there is a possibility of eventual chamber failure . A 5.56 chamber is 'looser' allowing for the ability to shoot both 5.56 and .223 without overpressure issues. Some manufacturers mark thier barrels 5.56 but they arent. I gauged a nieghboring agencies carbines which were marked 5.56. Not a suprise but none of them were.

[goaltendah1]

I would suspect that my LMT barrel would be speced properly for 5.56mm as they deliver product to the government, but I could be wrong.

Jeff

[Steve O.]

Originally Posted by Shane1

I'll take these in order
1. Ammo.
M855 is hard on steel , most 5.56 is hard on steel. Keep your minimum engagement distances in mind. We use frangible for 75 yards and in. For training ammo, we use whatever is available. In the past in my personal gun, I have used Wolff, Privi and the other. Its cheap and it works. Be aware of any ammo with the 'XM' designation as it means that lot was rejected by the Goverment.

2. An AR type weapon is fine for home defense if it is all you have. The over penetration myth was busted several years ago by the FBI, specifically Buford Boone. Most shotgun rounds offer a more serious threat of overpenetration vs. a 55 grain 5.56.



3. It wont matter if you use a pistol, carbine or shotgun for HD as long as it is a legal justified use of force. If you not within the laws, it wont matter either. Its the circumstances, not the weapons. Thats a myth.

4.Depending on the carbine manufacturer, you may get a true 5.56 chamber or you may not. It's relatively easy to find out if you know someone with a gauge.

Please elaborate on your point #2 and give examples, especially of over penetrating shotgun rounds. And I'm not sure what you mean by your point #3. What myth are you referring to?

Thanks, Steve

[Shane1]

Yes, LMT should be good to go.

I dont have the direct link on this computer but Mr. Boone did significant testing of various 12gauge vs. 5.56 as far as penetration, fragmentation etc on sheetrock and various mediums. A lot of LEO agencies in the U.S. at the time were not wanting 5.56 due to the overpenetration myths. Which is excatly what they are.

Reference the AR as home defense legal stuff. It doesnt matter if you use your legally registered SBR or a flintrock. There has never been a case where the type of firearm came into question and resulted in a conviction. Your lawyer, if it goes that far, will dispell any stupidity about evil rifles. As long as you are within the limits of your jurisdiciton as far as ownership and the use of force, you will be ok. Now, if you use a unregistered sbr/sbs/etc, then the circumstances wont matter because the unlawfull possesion of that device will be an additional charge.

Missing with a AR is little different from missing with a shotgun or pistol. Your responsbile for the rounds you fire and where they end up. This, for the most part, is a training issue. All the CDI stuff mounted on your rifle isn't going to do a lick of good if you don't get professional training and sustainment traing to keep your skill set up.

[Steve O.]

Originally Posted by Shane1

Yes, LMT should be good to go.

I dont have the direct link on this computer but Mr. Boone did significant testing of various 12gauge vs. 5.56 as far as penetration, fragmentation etc on sheetrock and various mediums. A lot of LEO agencies in the U.S. at the time were not wanting 5.56 due to the overpenetration myths. Which is excatly what they are.

Reference the AR as home defense legal stuff. It doesnt matter if you use your legally registered SBR or a flintrock. There has never been a case where the type of firearm came into question and resulted in a conviction. Your lawyer, if it goes that far, will dispell any stupidity about evil rifles. As long as you are within the limits of your jurisdiciton as far as ownership and the use of force, you will be ok. Now, if you use a unregistered sbr/sbs/etc, then the circumstances wont matter because the unlawfull possesion of that device will be an additional charge.

Missing with a AR is little different from missing with a shotgun or pistol. Your responsbile for the rounds you fire and where they end up. This, for the most part, is a training issue. All the CDI stuff mounted on your rifle isn't going to do a lick of good if you don't get professional training and sustainment traing to keep your skill set up.

So are you, based on Mr. Boone's findings, saying that rifle round (in this case 5.56mm) over penetration is a myth? Are you saying that home defense shotgun loads (00 buck being what I, and many folks consider the most common) will not penetrate as much as a 5.56mm round? I'm making sure that I understand your point.

Now, you seem to think that I feel you shouldn't use an AR for home defense if that's all you have. Please re-read my post, as I did not say that. To be clear, a good lawyer should be able to defend any lawful action that you take. My point is that there is no need to make your attorney's job any more difficult, so if there is an option, using an 870 will make his defense of your actions easier.

I'm not sure what point you were making, relevant to the topic, with the comments about unlawful possession. And the whole "training with what you have" issue is pretty self evident.

What does CDI stand for?

Please enlighten me.

[major.rod]

Originally Posted by Shane1

Yes, LMT should be good to go.

I dont have the direct link on this computer but Mr. Boone did significant testing of various 12gauge vs. 5.56 as far as penetration, fragmentation etc on sheetrock and various mediums. A lot of LEO agencies in the U.S. at the time were not wanting 5.56 due to the overpenetration myths. Which is excatly what they are.

Reference the AR as home defense legal stuff. It doesnt matter if you use your legally registered SBR or a flintrock. There has never been a case where the type of firearm came into question and resulted in a conviction. Your lawyer, if it goes that far, will dispell any stupidity about evil rifles. As long as you are within the limits of your jurisdiciton as far as ownership and the use of force, you will be ok. Now, if you use a unregistered sbr/sbs/etc, then the circumstances wont matter because the unlawfull possesion of that device will be an additional charge.

Missing with a AR is little different from missing with a shotgun or pistol. Your responsbile for the rounds you fire and where they end up. This, for the most part, is a training issue. All the CDI stuff mounted on your rifle isn't going to do a lick of good if you don't get professional training and sustainment traing to keep your skill set up.

Overpenetration myths? The devil is in the details. What kind of load the shotgun is shooting makes a big difference as well what one is shooting at (or through). Generally speaking 5.56 is going to go though more "stuff" than a shotgun (F=MA). Boone’s study had 00 buckshot penetrate ballistic gelatin where a 5.56 round did not. I have not seen the results of any tests comparing how many sheets of drywall 00 buck vs. 5.56 will penetrate after going through gelatin. I also don’t know how big a block of gelatin Mr. Boone was using.
Here’s a link that shows some various weapon testing. BLUF: Everything went through four sheets of drywall. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

I still lean towards a shotgun vs AR for home defense. No kids, single family brick and shingle house. I like the deterrent of racking a round. Problem is I haven’t bought a shotgun yet and even though I have an AR I rely on a .45 shooting Glaser blue tip.

Secondly a blanket statement about how juries will react, what lawyers should do or how no one’s been convicted because of the specific weapon used isn't really applicable. A clear shoot/no shoot situation is the most important factor on beating a charge. Second is going to be the witnesses. Finally the weapon whether one likes to admit it or not may contribute to intent or how the jury sees the defendant as well as where you live in the states. If you shoot an intruder in NYC with a "legal" AR15 in an M4 config it's going to look different no matter the situation vs. using a shotgun or pistol. Not much maybe, but it will. Shoot them here in GA and you’ll be complimented on marksmanship. Having lived in both places I can attest to a different mindset as well as a different standard to what constitutes self defense.

Most that choose to defend themselves have type A personalities. We tend to be assertive but there are other valid perspectives. Interesting subject. we are all friends here.

[Shane1]

Steve,

Sorry, should've specified. I'm talking wound ballistics/penetration, not just straight penetration. Non-prohibited penetration, meaning no medium to slow down the round, will result in similar results for birdshot, buckshot, slugs etc. At close engagement distances, the bird/buck shot will not have time to expand, basically acting like a slug.


Having tested various loads of both birdshot and buckshot, I've gotten similar results as the dude shooting the drywall with no Gelatin. Key with that is no gelatin. LEO agencies at the time had it in their heads that 5.56 would go through the bad guy and half way around the world.

I cannot post Mr. Boone's direct results but if you search the net, you may be able to find them.

Someone else to look at is Dr. Gary Roberts. He does a lot of different ballistic testing which he can open source and does on various forums.

I have no issue with someone using a shotgun for HD . If they like it, and it works for them, then rock on. I carried a shotgun at work for a long time and still have mine even though I carry a AR work wise now. My biggest issue is someone going and buying a gun, then just loading it up with whatever ammo they feel like using and saying 'I'm done". I'm a big advocate of training. Its doesn't matter if your Suzy or Joe homemaker, a LEO or Mil. Same thing goes for research. Take the time to try out your chosen HD round on various medums if you can. Or at least look at the research that has been done on your round and how it will act so you make an informed choice.

Question, how does using a 870 vs a AR make your attorneys job easier?
Legitimate UoF is legitimate use of force. Now, as Rod pointed out, some states will vary. Especially NY and other predominately anti-gun states.

CDI- Chicks Dig It .

"I like the deterrent of racking a round."

If someone is intent on doing you harm, just racking a round in a shotgun or rifle isn't going to scare them off. You have just given up you advantage of them not knowing if your armed or not.

Legal justification of the use of force will be the biggest factor, not what you shoot them with. NY is a lose lose for the most part due to their laws and their sheep like mindset of all guns are bad. it has to do with the laws. Generally speaking, most folks cant possess firearms in NY. I know, I grew up there also. Hence, me staying in Ga. As far as the different standard of the justification of UoF, again, different laws pertain to different states.

FWIW, I don't make blanket statements on these types of things. Part of my job is to keep current on these issues and the law.

[major.rod]

Man! Wrote a great response and then had an internet hiccup. CRAP!!!

Couple of thoughts. I’m a huge proponent of training and knowing your tools. We have that in common. I have a military background and am quite familiar with the advantages of an ambush where the “hello” is always induced with your greatest casualty producing weapon (preferably a claymore or medium machinegun). I’m also a little better than average when it comes to shooting. I also grew up in a crime infested Brooklyn ghetto and am unfortunately too familiar with criminals.

Yes, racking the shotgun let’s your assailant know you’re armed (so does charging an M4 or racking the slide on an auto).

Some jurisdictions accept an intruder’s presence as cause enough to shoot. Others require an overt act. All require the shooter to feel threatened. Given that at some point one will have to justify a shooting, I like having that extra layer of warning to an intruder to justify my actions. I expect to be the only witness. An ambush mentality isn’t a plus in a self defense situation.

The other advantage of a load loading procedure is in the event you are trying to dissuade a break in. Finally, in the event one has to shoot multiple assailants in a group a shotgun is superior (there’s a reason they are sometimes called a “riot gun”). The shotgun is then a more versatile defensive tool.

Another advantage to the shotgun is in the event of a civil trial. Being a vet some slick lawyer may try and make hay on the “gung ho” vet stereotype wielding an assault weapon right or wrong. Even the nonshooting jurist understands the intimidation of a shotgun and the thought process of an assailant still determined to do harm after hearing a shotgun racked.

Now all this said, I don’t have a shotgun which seems pretty silly for me to be promoting one. Well I will eventually but more importantly not knowing the shooting ability of an individual, jurisdiction they live in or specific defensive situation being discussed a shotgun is the most versatile choice. That said, it bears repeating I’ll be using what I own in a self defense situation which would likely be a .45 pistol in the house.

All this talk has me looking at shotguns again. I was leaning towards the Mossberg 500 series with some kind of stock with an eye to keeping cost down. Now I like trap/skeet and am decent at it so I’m starting to consider a Remington 870 because I hear barrels can be switched rather easily. Yep, I’ll get some looks at the range but I like the training value vs. a purpose made two shot shotgun.

Just to be clear I took

3. It wont matter if you use a pistol, carbine or shotgun for HD as long as it is a legal justified use of force. If you not within the laws, it wont matter either. Its the circumstances, not the weapons. Thats a myth.

as a blanket statement. Circumstances can include the type of weapon & background of the individual. Juries will consider an amatuer striking someone with a fist differently than a professional boxer. Clear UofF is key but as we know life is not always black and white.

Shane, don't take anything I'm saying in a condescending tone. The written word can come out that way sometimes. I recognize you're a law enforcement pro. Just having a professional discussion. You're introduction of Mr. Boone's research is helpful even though it's not conclusive as to how it pertains to every situation. I don't agree with Mr. Boone's conclusion that shotguns penetrate more than 5.56. Simply put, if testing the hypothesis Id rather be the guy armed with 5.56 firing from cover at the assailant with a shotgun behind similar cover finding out which weapon penetrates more.

[Nick Fury 2002]

Hey Rod, Got just the street sweeper for ya. nice compact light manageable and can even mount a light to them
Stoeger over under and side by side
http://www.stoegerindustries.com/fir...le-defense.php
Mossberg over under
http://www.georgiagunstore.com/gun_s...L_SYN_CYK.html

I am sure you could change barrels on these for the days you want to shoot trap or whatever.

[major.rod]

Nick - Ha! Cool but not what I'm looking for.

Was wanting a pump with at least six shots that had a removeable barrel. Heard rumors they exist. (Think of switching the upper on an AR15 level of simplicity.) Hoping to keep the cost under $300. I've seen Mossburg's for $250 at the PX.

Thanks for the cool links though.

[Nick Fury 2002]

Rod,
Most Mossys and Remmys can have the barrels changed out. You just need to know the make of the shot gun and what type of barrel. The only thing that may screw this up is if you have a shotty like mine with a 8-9 shell tube. Most of your longer barrels say for hunting or skeet are made for tubes that only hold 6 shells. But since that is what you are looking for you should be ok.